| Author |
 Topic  |
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2008 : 10:22:09 PM
|
I'm doing some research on Rifle Clubs...As members of Rifle Clubs were for three years at a time from around 1890, under oath to serve Her/ His Majesty as part of the colonial and later C'wealth defence forces, I wonder whether anyone might have references or ideas around how many rifle club members may have signed up for the Boer war contingents or later for Light Horse or other 1st AIF units as distinct from stayed in situ?
I saw some figures recently which showed that when the Boer war broke out, rifle club membership grew dramatically (In Victoria on 30 June 1899 members were 2,562 atrong, but a year later membership had jumped to 13, 378 - NAA B3756 1900/1925). Which raised the question in my mind - how many of the original 1899 members joined up as distinct from stayed home when the surge in membership to demonstrate patriotic credentials began...and was there a similar effect in WWI?
I don't believe I've ever read a NAA service dossier from WWI where the enlistee states Rifle Club service in the previous service section...
Grateful any thoughts and ideas on this?
Thanks,
Andrew |
|
|
Kim
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
2171 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 07:07:36 AM
|
Andrew,
Question 11 on the Attestation only refers to service in His Majesty's Army, the Marines, the Militia, the Militia Reserve, Territorial Force, the Royal Navy, or Colonial Force.
Local History and RSL organistions might have records of the rifle clubs if you want to take this further.
Another one would be schools.
Corryong High had a rifle club for many years.
Cheers
Kim |
 |
|
|
Bill Woerlee
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
4635 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 08:15:22 AM
|
Andrew
G'day mate
Interesting subject and one which set off a trail of interest with me a few years ago when the children's GGF listed the following on his attestation papers:
2823 Private Herbert Leslie Schramm, Served 2 years with Tumby Bay Rifle Club.
Of course, the curiosity is raised as to why a person would include a rifle club as part of military service. My nephew and myself were members of a rifle club in WA and apart from all the regulation things that had to be dealt with as par for the course, there was nothing martial about it. So the connection is tenuous. A puzzler indeed for the person in the 21st century. This situation should pique the interest of a person who has a genuine interest in history as it has in yourself, so that we go beyond the superficial statement in Question 11 on the Attestation Paper and find out why this question was asked in the first place.
A bit more digging and we find rifle clubs being listed in the Commonwealth General Military Orders as they become active or are deactivated. In addition to shooting, their main task, they also undertook rudimentary drills and led by a captain, usually a nominal position a al Captain Mainwaring in "Dad's Army".
There was a very serious side to the Rifle Clubs which is missed by most historians of the Great War, but one which laid the underpinnings for the Australian defence posture from 1901 - 1910 and the roll on effects into the Kitchener Report.
My understanding is that Hutton was asked to put together a low cost military model for the defence of Australia upon Federation. The state's model - producing Imperial formations which would slot into the British Army seamlessly - proved to be outrageously expensive and far beyond the resources of the Commonwealth. Boer War commitments nearly ruined the governments and it certainly crippled the growth of the Commonwealth for many years. So Hutton was assigned the task of coming up with a solution.
Hutton was a good organiser - no doubt about that - and he took on his task with a certain amount of efficiency. His lack of efficiency related to his innate snobbery where he chose officers on the grounds of breeding rather than on merit, and thus bringing him into constant conflict with the new Minister of Defence. One only need reflect on the rise of the officers who went onto serve in the Great War as Generals to realise the devastating effect this had on the lives of the men who were their charges - the charge at the Nek is one that springs immediately to mind.
However, Hutton chose the Boer Commando system as the best model for the defence of Australia. This was the greatest accolade that could be paid to Oom Paul and his crew - aping his system of defence while fighting against it simultaneously. To get trained cells of men without actually incurring too much cost the notion of Rifle Clubs (in Transvaal - Cornets) came into play. The Commonwealth would provide the rifles and ammunition while the members would pay the rest. The clubs would be an integral part of the military with the Australian Instructional Staff taking care of the drills and shooting training for the leadership cadres of the clubs. In essence, if Australia had been invaded during this period, one would have seen a replay of the Boer War although this time Australians riding in the commandos.
After the Kitchener reforms where the posture was to be changed from a guerrilla force to a military that would once again fit seamlessly into an Imperial Expeditionary Force, massive battalions and regiments were formed, and while not stated, appeared to be slotted into an Imperial scheme with 7 infantry divisions and 2 cavalry divisions. We can see how this played out in the Great War with 5 Infantry Divisions, 2 Cavalry Divisions and 1 Training Division - just one division short of the Kitchener Plan and that was only because the PM, Billy Hughes could not get his desire for another division through cabinet.
For regions not able to be adequately served by this structure or for those not eligible to serve, the rifle clubs remained an integral part of the landscape in their quasi military role.
Here are a few other members of the 9th LHR who also answered Question 11 regarding Rifle Club service:
2475 Pte John Thomas Ward, Served 3 years with Red Bank Rifle Club, Victoria
2803 Pte Guthrie Hugh Lipson Baillie, Served 1.5 years with Tumby Bay Rifle Club
2824 Pte Frederick Harry Schwartz, Served 2 years with Mannum Rifle Club
2986 Pte William Bumett Willison, Served 2 years with the Salisbury Rifle Club
These are just a few examples.
Hope this helps you a bit further in your quest.
Cheers
Bill
|
|
|
|
Barry Bamford
Advanced Forum Member
Australia
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 10:38:00 AM
|
Andrew,
I don't know that my points will add a great deal to what has been said -- but I do know that up until at least the late 1950's, all rifle-ranges were subject to Commonwealth jurisdiction. I had a distant relative who was for some years the 'Inspector of Rifle Ranges in WA.' Given this, it seems to me that somewhere in Commonwealth Government records there would be reports by such people -- probably from the time of inception that Bill mentions above.
My recollection also is that there were details concerning the conduct of rifle ranges set out in Australian Military Regulations and Orders (AMR&O),such details may provide avenues for exploration as well. However, my dealings with that source was a long time ago, it was revised and changed to 'AMR' somewhere around the early 1970's, so you would probably have to get a copy of the earlier version to get such information. Someone with more recent experience with these regulations may be able to clarify the situation.
Regards,
BEB |
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 10:39:08 AM
|
Thanks Bill and Kim,
Craig Wilcox in his article "Defending Australia 1914-1918: The Other Australian Army" says:
"Before the war the Australian government sanctioned vague plans to raise an expeditionary force to serve with the British army if war began. It would be formed of Australia's best men, of course, but they would be voluntarily recruited and amount to just one infantry division and one light horse brigade. At the same time, fear of Japanese attack on Australian soil yielded active preparation, not just vague plans. Millions of pounds were devoted to disbanding the old voluntarily-recruited citizen forces and to beginning to raise a vast compulsory militia from annual intakes of fit 18-year-old men.3 The militia would be complete only in 1920. Until then, rifle club members, who shot for military as well as sporting reasons, would bring it up to war strength in a crisis. Detailed defence schemes laid down when and where the militia, the rifle club reservists and the so-called permanent force, the citizen army's cadre of professional artillery and engineers, would concentrate if war began. First they would secure the capital cities, Newcastle and Thursday Island from attack. Then they would form a field army to repel an invasion by an 'Eastern power', a polite euphemism for Japan. Military enthusiasts sometimes talked of the German challenge before the war. The citizen army had a different enemy in its sights, and militia officers reminded their young soldiers they were training to beat back a coming Japanese invasion."
I believe from this and other references that the Rifle Club story worked something like this:
1860 - 1890 While there were rifle clubs in Australia before 1860, this was the year that the National Rifle Association was established in England - subsequently copied in form if not substance in various colonies over the years. People who belonged to these rifle clubs were often volunteers (not militia) although many militia soldiers also fired at rifle clubs. Around 1890, with the colonies working towards a more coordinated defence framework after several "war" scares, Rifle Clubs were inducted into the colonial defence systems, with the colonial governments (Vic and I expect to find others) paying for 100 rounds of ammunition a year, a service rifle (the Martini-Henry) and free rail passes to get to camps and competitions. Victoria's General Orders in January 1889 set out the new regulations in this regard, and the rifle club members also took the oath of service for a three year period, had to qualfy annually in musketry, and permanent military staff were assigned to manage the clubs. As well, many permanent staff and militia especially from the artillery and mounted rifles, were members of the rifle clubs. They even had rifle club uniforms - the same as the Victorian Mounted Rifles but with green facings.
The team photos of the Victorian Rifle Team which competed at Bisley in 1897 show these distinctions clearly - the civilian members of the rifle clubs, referred to as privates, were in a VMR uniform with green facings, complete with wallaby fur puggaree; the military members (both permanent and militia) wore their assigned uniforms.
1890-1901 As described above, but along came the Boer War - as I mentioned in my first post, given that many rifle club members if not all were actually volunteers and considered reservists, did they all volunteer for Boer war service, or did a proportion? Certainly the artillery members in the urban clubs did not on the whole, with some exceptions...
1901-1918 Craig Wilcox's note and Bill's inform us here...again, rifle clubs were seen as a reserve of volunteers. And although not martial, as Bill points out, must have been a ready source of semi-skilled manpower. The cadet system, which had grown in strength since introduced in Victoria and then other colonies before Federation, also contributed with their emphasis on musketry. But that's another story.
It seems that as the rifle clubs (which came and went with regular monotony as numbers waxed and waned) were managed basically as volunteer clubs, few records were formally retained after they disbanded. So it is difficult to find extant member lists which might help to answer the question how many of them might have volunteered in Boer War Contingents or 1st AIF..
From Bill's examples, it is evident that some enlistees considered their rifle club service to be martial in some way - unfortunately, if they were still taking oaths of service in rifle clubs after federation, no written examples or records of those who so attested seem to have survived. Perhaps it was just that, a simple swearing of an oath. Membership lists of some rifle clubs of the period in SA, Vic, or NSW in particular (which had formed the earliest rifle clubs) pre-Federation and after, might help solve the essential question.
Thanks,
Andrew
Apologies for the long post! |
|
|
|
Sandra
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1964 Posts |
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 10:51:20 AM
|
Thanks Barry also - I guess I am less interested in rifle clubs after WWI (when the previously close relationship with defence was loosened) and want to stay focused on that interesting period of 1890-1918. As we know, most of the Boer war Contingents were mounted, and a good number of those volunteers went on to serve in ALH or other units in the 1st AIF. It is a little known equation, but as I start to learn more and piece together some coherency to the story, I begin to believe it possible that most if not all rifle club members who met age and medical requirements, will have served. I guess when I can find some actual membership lists or some other evidence from archives, this will remain a theory. Bottom line, I believe rifle clubs made a small but important contribution not just to Australia's defence at home, but also as a source of manpower for expeditions abroad!
Of interest to me is that in Victoria at least, it seems all arms and services of the militia were active in rifle clubs, whereas in SA, the militia often fired competitions between themselves or other arms (e.g., infantry vs mounted rifles)and came together with the civilian clubs for NRA sponsored annual competitions and inter-colonial competitions (i.e., interstate)).
Cheers,
Andrew |
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 11:05:36 AM
|
Thanks Sandra,
Having been on the receiving end of military law on the odd occasion this was a good read!
There is no doubt that militia and permanent forces in Australia in the period under discussion could get themselves into trouble and did - as reflected in numerous colonial General orders and them C'Wealth GMOs later. I have not, however, seen any reference to rifle club members who were not already militia coming under military law applications in the same way. They evidently took an oath and were considered volunteers but were clearly not subject to military law. I noted in my research into the Victorian Rifle Team for Bisley in 1897 that on the voyage to England that they were obliged to do rifle drill every morning ((battle drill it was called in my day, more like arduous calisthenics with rifles) - but as one of the rifle club "privates" said in a letter home "they did it because Colonel kelly (the adjutant and later C.O. of 4th VMR to the Boer War) seemed to like it" - and not because they were obliged to do it. On the other hand they all received a Jubilee medal regardless of their origin. I also noticed that when the VMR Contingent volunteered for the Jubilee , they all had to attest their willingness and understanding that while away they were very much under British Army military discipline, with all that entailed. Most of that VMR Contingent were militia.
So the Rifle Club members were "quasi-military" at best, but nonetheless regarded as part of the overall military/defence mix.
Cheers,
Andrew
Andrew |
|
|
|
Jeff Pickerd
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 11:20:09 AM
|
Andrew,
The following article from the Melbourne "ARGUS", on Tuesday, 4th April, 1911, page 6, entitled: -
MILTARY BOARD,
RADICAL CHANGES,
TRAINING CONTROL TRANSFERRED.
Unfortunately the whole article has not been photocopied, but there is a great deal of information to these changes within what we have.
"Radical changes in the constitution of the Military Board, and in the allotment of duties to the various members, were approved by the Federal Executive Council yesterday. The principal changes effected are that the administration of the universal training system is transferred from the Quartermaster-General (Lieut-Colonel Legge) to the Adjutant-General (Colonel Wallack), and that questions of principle will be settled for the future by (1) the member of the board responsible, (2) the Minister, (3) the Minister, after obtaining full advice of the Military Board in session, according to their importance.
Under the new scheme the personnel of the board will be limited to the following: - The Minister of Defence (president), the Chief of General Staff (first military member), the Adjutant-General (second military member), the Quartermaster-General (third military member), the Chief of Ordinance (fourth military member), and the finance member. The positions are at present filled in the order named by Senator Pearce, Major-General Hoad, Colonel Wallack, Lieut-Colonel Legge, Colonel Wallace, and Mr. Laing.
The Minister will assign their duties to the various members of the board, who will be primarily and directly responsible to him. Each member will draft regulations dealing with his branch, and submit them to the Minister. The duties of directors in each branch will be allotted by the responsible member of the board.
Meetings will be convened by the Minister, and, in his absence, by the Secretary for Defence. A secretary to the board will be appointed from the department of the Secretary for Defence (Commander S. A. Pethebridge), who will be relieved of his duties in connection with the board. All appointments will be referred to the Inspector-General for his advice and recommendation.
The rules for business of the Military Board will be: -
(A) Matters of routine to be decided by and dealt with in the name of the responsible member of the board, who may delegate duties to his directors.
(B) Questions of principle will be decided by, (1) the member of the board responsible, (2) the Minister, (3) the Minister, after obtaining the full advice of the Military Board in session, according to their importance. In the case of (3) a précis of the questions to be prepared and laid before the board for discussion and decision.
(C) A session of the Military Board will be convened by the Minister when necessary. Four days before a meeting each member will submit to the Minister the subjects proposed by him, together with his recommendation thereon.
(D) The recommendation of each subject discussed will be reported and forwarded by the secretary of the board to the Secretary for Defence for submission to the Minister, the recommendation to be initialed by each member to signify his concurrence or dissent.
(E) Copies of the decisions and recommendations to be furnished immediately after each meeting to the Minister, the members, the Secretary for Defence, and the Inspector-General.
(F) Weekly circulars, showing decisions and orders of the Minister and members of the board, to be supplied to the officers named in (E).
The duties of each member of the board will be: - Chief of General Staff: - All pre-training and instruction other than that allotted to the Adjutant-General; education and examination for first appointments, and promotion of officers, allocation of funds for manoeuvres and training; preparation and maintenance of defence scheme and censorship. Under the Chief of General Staff will be directors of Operations, Training, and Intelligence.
The Adjutant-General will be charged with the enrolment, organization, and mobilization of troops, including registration, exemptions, medical inspections, recruiting, and recruit training, all questions relating to administrative and instructional staff, education and examination of soldiers, appointments, promotions, retirements, and exchanges of officers, rifles clubs, and reserves, and cadets. Under the Adjutant-General will be a director of personnel, a director of rifle clubs and reserves, and a director of medical service and cadets. The Quartermaster-General will have charge of equipment and maintenance of troops, including preparation of regulations for universal training in consultation with the Adjutant-General. Administration of transport and remounts, railway matters, occupation and equipment of barracks," …(here the copy of the article ends).
There are a number of men from the 8th LHR who give, present or past participation of Rifle Club service in their Attestation forms.
I will look these up for you later.
Not much more in answer to your question, but I will see what else I can find.
Jeff |
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 4:31:37 PM
|
Jeff,
My thanks for this very useful insight into the restructuring noted in the Argus - the mind-numbing but critical microfilm trawl of the newspapers for this sort of info by yours truly has not yet begun, but at least these nuggets are there to be found. Thanks for sharing that with me.
One thing it does point to is that training of the regulars and militia in musketry was not devolved to the Rifle Clubs. This was kept the preserve of the new Administrative and Instructional Staff of the C'wealth Military Forces. One reason for this appears to have been a healthy suspicion by some traditional military men that "potshooter" riflemen did not understand the need for massed fire under orders. There had been a long running debate apparently between those in rifle clubs who said that any one could be trained to shoot accurately and those in the military who essentially felt that soldiers were too "thick" to learn those skills. Even after the Boer War, the shadow of Crimea still persisted.
I'd appreciate the 8th LH attestation lists with rifle club affiliations noted; that would be very useful information, thank you.
Cheers,
Andrew |
|
|
|
diggerdave
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1248 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 4:53:31 PM
|
Some of you may be aware of my ongoing and in-work project of indexing the eight major regional Hunter Valley newspapers in existence at the time of The Great War from 1914-1919 and rifle clubs are included in the index.
Some of the listings to date include: Rifle Club Membership (Number of school teachers who will undertake drill tuition up to a certain stage …..)
Defence Minister's Appeal - Enlist or Join the Rifle Clubs
Citizens to Drill - Rifle Club Movement in Scone
Germany Not Beaten Yet - Colonel Wallack and Rifle Clubs
("An enthusiastic meeting in connection with the rifle club drill movement was held at Newcastle on Monday evening. Colonel Wallack addressed the meeting, …..)
Local and General News - Rifle Club (To co-operate with local recruiting association in assisting to entertain the men of the North-West Route March contingent)
Periscope for Rifles - Countryman's Invention (Mr F Hunt, Yass Rifle Club, lives at Jerrawa.)
Singleton Letter - Farewell to Rifle Club Members (Ptes J Bourke, Eric Bourke, D Mylecharane - 36Bn)
Notice - Naval and Military - Our Empire Calls - To Members of the old Militia Forces, Rifle Clubs and Private Citizens. Requirements: 19 to 39 years old, Height 5 feet 4 inches; chest 34 inches
Current News - ("Mr Carmichael, the State Minister for Public Instruction, referred to arrangements which have been made for the use of Government House grounds to further the rifle club movement …..)
District News - West Wallsend - Rifle Club Formed
Matters in Sydney - Rifle Clubs Movement (Colonel Wallack at Randwick)
Notice - To the Men of Newcastle - A public meeting will be held on Thursday evening next, March 4th, 1915, at 8 o'clock … for the purpose of forming a rifle club in connection with the Newcastle YMCA ……..
(Meeting of officers and staff of Morisset Hospital to form a rifle club)
Stockton - Patriotic Meeting (Meeting to form a rifle club)
Greta - (Meeting to form a rifle club)
Rifle Shooting - (First drill of Newcastle Rifle Club at drill hall, Langford Street, on Wednesday night last.)
("The first drill of the YMCA Rifle Club is to be held at Fort Scratchley on Monday evening next.")
Notice - YMCA Rifle Club (Drills at Fort Scratchley every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday at 7.45pm)
Sporting - Rifle Shooting (Muster of members of Newcastle Rifle Club at Drill Hall, Newcastle West, under Lieut Connell. Signalling class formed in charge of Captain Millard.)
Matters in Sydney - ("At a parade of the South African Soldiers' Club in Centennial Park, Sydney, on Saturday, ……importance of the Rifle Club movement ….)
Current News - ("Good progress is being made in the organisation of the Rifle Club in connection with the Newcastle branch of the YMCA …..drilled three nights a week by Lieuts Hookway and Kitchen and Sgt Brown at Fort Scratchley.)
Advertisement - Rifle Club Suits (Scotts Men's Wear Store)
("The monthly day-drill of the Newcastle YMCA Rifle Club was conducted on Saturday afternoon, at Fort Scratchley, by Lieuts Hookway and Kitchen ….)
("The special attention of officers commanding regiments is directed to D.O.73 of August 18, 1914, Paragraph 7 relative to "Instruction in Drill for Members of Rifle Clubs." It is strongly urged …..)
Notice - YMCA Rifle Club - Parade Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday at Fort Scratchley - Fall in 8pm - Club Uniform to be Worn. WA Howard, Captain
Rifle Clubs' Union - Annual Meeting (Newcastle Rifle Clubs' Union in Drill Hall, Newcastle West)
(First annual meeting of Abermain Rifle Club at Hotel Denman)
West Wallsend (West Wallsend Rifle Club - asked to send men to join 'Riflemens Thousand')
Recruiting Campaign - Rifle Clubs' First Batch
("Mr George Douglass, of the NSW Rifle Association, has arranged to visit Maitland on January 1st to meet members of the Maitland Rifle Club - recruits for the Rifle Club Thousand)
(Meeting of West Wallsend Rifle Club re rifles from military department arriving)
Twenty Four Years Ago - January 1892 ("A very pleasant social in connection with the Artillery and Naval Brigade Rifle Club was held at Fry's Hall, Union Street, Newcastle, on Saturday evening, January 2 ……….")
Wallsend and Plattsburg (Wallsend Rifle Club send-off to four members - Pte A Pryde, J G Metcalfe, G Wanless and R Henwood - 4 Reinf 30Bn)
District News - West Wallsend (West Wallsend Rifle Club officially opened on the military rifle range on Saturday afternoon………)
Twenty Four Years Ago - February 1892 (".. A social in connection with Newcastle Volunteer Infantry Rifle Club was held at the Warwick Hall, Darby Street, Newcastle, on Wednesday evening, February 10th. Major Ranclaud presided. The other officers present were Captain Burnage, Captain Mounton and Lieut Sweetland…….")
(Send-off at Hotel Denman on Saturday night to Ptes J Allen - 34Bn; J Waddell - 36Bn; H Devon - 35Bn; R Patterson - 35Bn - members of Abermain Rifle Club)
And let us not lose sight that the New South Wales raised 36th Infantry Battalion, known as "Carmichael's Thousand" or "The Riflemen's Thousand" was initially made up of men from the rifle clubs of New South Wales.
The 36th Battalion was disbanded in mid-1918. Perhaps its greatest feat during the First World War was the magnificent bayonet charge at the First Battle of Villers-Bretonneux (4/5th April 1918) when the 9th Infantry Brigade of the 3rd Australian Division covered Villers-Bretonneux, whose southern and northern flanks were held by two British divisions. The 9th Infantry Brigade seemed to be holding the enemy’s advance until the British 14th Division caved in and lost the town of Hamel. In mid-afternoon, the British 18th Division broke on the Australian’s southern flank and the whole line was forced to retire to the outskirts of Villers-Bretonneux.
The fate of the 9th Infantry Brigade, comprising of the 33rd, 34th, 35th and 36th Infantry Battalions, the 9th Machine Gun Company and the 9th Light Trench Mortar Battery, appeared to be sealed as the Germans surged steadily closer to the ruins of the town. Suddenly the 36th Infantry Battalion stormed out of a hollow in which they had been waiting and with bayonets glinting in the declining sun, charged straight for the enemy. In a series of savage encounters with bullets, bayonets and bombs they were able to drive the enemy away from the town’s outskirts and back to their trenches, one and a half kilometres away. The 15th Australian Brigade was brought across the Somme to hold and restore the northern flank of the town and Villers-Bretonneux was saved.
Not much was mentioned of the First Battle of Villers-Bretonneux in the lead-up to the recent dawn service at Villers-Bretonneux, the focus being on the second battle of Villers-Bretonneux of 24/25 April 1918.
Or should I state here that I didn't read or hear anything about the first battle.
|
|
|
|
Jeff Pickerd
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 6:24:42 PM
|
Andrew,
Before going on, I must state that none of the following could have been submitted, if it were not for David digging these articles out from the Vic State Library archives. It was David's kind offer to do these look-ups that brought these articles to light.
If your next stage in the on-going research into the Militia, is to search the newspapers archives of the SLA, I'm sure David would be very pleased to have such assistance, and reciprocate in kind.
There is one thing that has greatly struck me, arising from these press reports of yesteryear, and that is the quality of reporting back then. The scrupulous attention to detail is remarkable.
I am constantly staggered at what can be found in these press reports of the time.
Here is another little Gem, ties in with the "Kitchener" topic.
AWM photographs of the Captain Rushall Troop at Bisley, found under "Kitchener" search.
The ARGUS, Wednesday, April 1, 1911, page 21.
CADETS FOR BISLEY.
STATE AID OFFERED.
COMMONWEALTH RELUCTANT.
"A Deputation introduced to the Minister for Defence (Senator Pearce) yesterday by Mr. Mathews, M.H.R., asked for Commonwealth assistance in sending a team of cadets to Bisley. The mayor of South Melbourne (Councillor Murphy) suggested that the Federal ministry should assist a visit to Bisley by the Victorian cadet rifle team, which lately won the Earl of Meath’s trophy. Councilor Baragwanath and Mr. Henry Skinner supported the request.
Mr. McKenzie (Minister for Lands) said that he had consulted with the State Treasurer (Mr. Watt), who said that any reasonable proposal for joint financial assistance by Victoria and the Commonwealth would rceive favourable consideration.
Senator Pearce, in reply, said that the Commonwealth Ministry found itself rather in a difficulty, having decided, first of all, that no military contingent should be sent to the Coronation. Sanction had been given to the visit of two cadet troops (one from New South Wales under Major Wynne, and the other from Victoria under Captain Rushall), but there would be no epense to the Commonwealth. If the Ministry were now to pay expenses of a team to Bisley an accusation of favouritism would be well grounded. He would suggest that those behind the present movement might join forces with Captain Rushall, with a view of having the rifle team included in his contingent. He would be glad to suggest the idea to Captain Rushall’s favourable consideration."
Shall come back with some 8th LHR references later this evening.
Jeff
|
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 10:42:53 PM
|
Digger Dave,
You are doing a fantastic job you know and your post on the Rifle Clubs in your areas of interest through the district newspapers is evidence of this. If only there were an army of you working on such things; I appreciate how much of an effort it is. Thank you for this terrific post and the information it reveals from the headlines alone. As Jeff says, it really is amazing what was reported and in what detail.
I will follow up with you on some of the info here off-line, but in particular you have given excellent insights into my theory that the Rifle Clubs were a real source of contribution - the Riflemen's Thousand/36th Battalion being a prime example.
If you ever come across names lists of members of particular clubs please let me know - I'd like to cross check the names with AIF rolls as a small exercise.
Thanks again for the information so generously shared.
Jeff, Can you connect me to David please?
In 1902, at a meeting of the Commonwealth Council of the Rifle Association of Australia in Melbourne, the State reps were: Col. Templeton CMG, Victoria, Lt.Col. Oldershaw NSW, Lt.Col Hutchinson NSW, Lt.Col Dean (SA) and Lt.Col Davies (Tas). (NAA B1535 44 G34) Templeton was Infantry and had been the team captain for the Victorian team to Bisley in 1897, Dean I think was artillery (?), not sure of the others. It was not until the Defence Act of 1903 that Rifle Clubs were incorporated formally into the new national defence system...
Thanks friends, a picture is emerging!
One correction - I said in an earlier post that the rifle club uniforms mandated in Victoria in 1889 were those of the VMR but with green facings - this should have been the Victorian Rangers.
Andrew |
|
|
|
Jeff Pickerd
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2008 : 10:53:16 PM
|
Andrew,
Here are the men from the 8th LHR who stated Rifle Club membership on their attestation forms. These are only the original members of the regiment, I have not gone through the subsequent reinforcements, but I know there are more who give Rifle Club membership.
BEECHING William Charles, No. 489. Tpr 8th LHR Machine Gun Section.
JOHNSTONE John, No. 97. Dvr, “A” Sqdn.
PERRY Alfred Leslie, No. 107. Tpr. “A” Sqdn. Horsham and Watchem Rifle Clubs.
CORRIE Ernest Henry, No. 120. Tpr. “A” Sqdn. Brunswick Rifle Club, 8 years.
LONGMORE Thomas, No. 132. Tpr. “A” Sqdn. Mafra Rifle Club, 18 months.
FYFFE Arthur William, No. 158. Tpr. “A” Sqdn. Beeac Rifle Club.
HAYLOCK Jock Wilfred, No. 165. Tpr. “A” Sqdn. Harrow Rifle Club, 3 years.
GRIFFITHS Alfred Henry, No. 167. Tpr. “A” Sqdn. Foster Rifle Club.
LINDSAY Richard, No. 174. Tpr. “A” Sqdn. Goorambat Rifle Club.
BOWKER Alwynne Stanley, No. 233. Cpl. “B” Sqdn. Captain of Moonlight Head Rifle Club.
McGRATH William, No. 268. Cpl. “B” Sqdn. Sth Melbourne Rifle Club.
PETTINGILL John Thomas, No. 222. Tpr. “B” Sqdn. Port Fairy Rifle Club.
DORMAN Vernon John, No. 285. Tpr. “B” Sqdn. Rosebery Rifle Club.
PETERS Herbert John, No. 433. tpr. “C” Sqdn. Stratford Rifle Club.
MORETON Archibald Hubert, No. 542. Tpr. “C” Sqdn. Geelong Rifle Club.
Jeff
|
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 12:51:52 AM
|
Thanks Jeff, more grist to the Mill...
Digger Dave, could you email me please as you have no contact address provided...Would like to discuss further the news reports you provided earlier...
Andrew |
|
|
|
stevebecker
Veteran Forum Member
4797 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 10:50:52 AM
|
Andrew,
Sorry mate I've come across these men from time to time but I don't keep any record of them only if in a Milita unit.
Sorry
S.B |
|
|
|
Bryn
Veteran Forum Member
Japan
1335 Posts |
|
|
Jean Bou
Forum Member
Australia
106 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 3:55:06 PM
|
Sorry if this repeats what has been said above in some way or another.
Rifle clubs were a well established military auxiliary in the pre-federation and immediate post-federation era. Typically members joined and were supplied arms and ammunition in order to practice shooting and often do a certain amount of drill. In the case of a military emergency they had certain defence obligations and the idea was that if need be they could be mobilised or could supply men to militia and volunteer units.
The idea reflected nineteenth century ideals about rifle equipped citizens making good 'irregulars' (which was mostly romanticising) as well as the limited defence budgets of the colonies. Victoria in particular used this as a way to maintain a lot of men under arms (even if loosely) whilst also keeping the budget down. During war scares or the imperial fervour that typically accompanied Britain's wars there was usaually a great enthusiasm to join the local forces. When this enthusiasm outstripped the colonial desire to provide uniforms etc the excited ones were often encouraged to start or join a rifle club. It was this sort of thing that was behind the spike in numbers you talk about in relation to the Boer War - and this was particularly the case in Victoria. A flood of potential VMR enlistees in 1899-1900 were directed into what were described as 'mounted rifle clubs'.
The idea of rifle clubs being a military auxiliary pretty much got its death knell around 1912 with the introduction of Universal Military Training and the First World War sealed it as far as serious defence thinking was concerned. Though when they 'officially' passed from Commmonwealth military control/direction I don't know off the top of my head.
For more see Craig Wilcox's 'For Hearths and Homes' and, if you want more and are in/near Canberra, his PhD thesis at the ANU.
Cheers |
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 7:33:56 PM
|
Thanks Jean for your post. It would seem that the decline of the rifle club reservists began in reality with the 1st AIF as it stripped the clubs of men and home defence was relegated to second place (or perhaps third place or more)...I remain intrigued by the question - how many actually did sign up from rifle clubs and therefore what was the actual contribution.
Agree that it seems many patriots found refuge in rifle clubs...
To quote Craig Wilcox again
"A reorientation of Australia's military system from home defence to expeditionary war was beginning. Not that the reorientation was immediately effected. By December 1914 the AIF had grown to twice its intended size—nearly 40,000 soldiers—but the citizen army remained far larger: over 100,000 soldiers, including 56,000 militiamen and 51,000 rifle reservists.14 Yet in terms of warlike activity the shift was already clear. Nearly 11,000 permanent and citizen soldiers had been mobilised for full-time duty since the war began, while twice as many men had already sailed overseas with the AlF.15 At the close of the year most of the militia's garrison artillerymen were dismissed from full-time duty.16 The appearance of a home-grown enemy would have halted the citizen army's demobilisation, but none occurred. An anticipated rising by Germans in Sydney over Christmas 1914 failed to eventuate, and the special trams which waited to bring soldiers into the city returned empty to their depots.17 Twenty non-uniformed members of the 82nd Infantry Battalion proved sufficient to help police kill the butcher and the ice cream vendor who, under a Turkish flag, fired shots into a passing train at Broken Hill on New Year's Day 1915.18 Australia's defence was being secured by soldiers in Europe and the Middle East, by sailors on distant fleets, by censors working with pens and typewriters, by William Holmes' force in Rabaul. The chance of conflict with Japan was being defused by silk-hatted diplomats in London and Tokyo. The citizen army, demobilised and without even saboteurs to suppress, was eclipsed by the AIF."
I wish I could write like that!
Cheers,
Andrew |
|
|
|
diggerdave
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1248 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2008 : 4:05:43 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by kilsbya[/i]
[br]Digger Dave, could you email me please as you have no contact address provided...Would like to discuss further the news reports you provided earlier...
Andrew
Hello Andrew.
Sorry for the delay in replying, but unfortunately I do not know much about the rifle clubs of the Hunter Valley other than what I have gleaned from the newspapers of the day.
The headings which I posted are exactly that - I have not printed off or transcribed the contents of any of the articles I listed.
Cheers
diggerdave |
|
|
|
geofmansfield
Forum Member
Australia
43 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 11:52:45 PM
|
Andrew,
I had a rummage in my library and found the following information relating to rifle clubs.
At Federation the strengths of the rifle clubs by States was as follows:
NSW-1,908
VIC-21,570
QLD-4,352
SA-2,180
WA-nil
TAS-nil
(Source:Palazzo,Albert,The Australian Army)
Under the provisions of the Defence Act 1903, rifle clubs became part of the Reserve Forces of the Commonwealth. The members of the clubs were attested under the Defences Acts and required each year to fire a prescribed musketry course, a capitation allowance being paid to clubs for each member classed as efficient. The strengths of the clubs for the year 1907 was as follows:
NSW-10,450
VIC-19,470
QLD-4,777
SA-3,575
WA-3,762
TAS-865
(Source:Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Australia No1- 1908)
I have a bound copy of the 'Report of the National Rifle Association of New South Wales' 1909 which incorporates a list of members including the following :
Sgt J.J. Boyle-5th A.L.H.
Tpr G.R. Bruce-2nd A.L.H.
Tpr G.D. Ellis-2nd A.L.H.
Lieut.J. Heane-2nd A.L.H.
Tpr D.B. Maher-2nd A.L.H.
Tpr A. Morris-2nd A.L.H.
Corpl R.C.McCleland-1st A.L.H.
Tpr F.J. Ryan-3rd A.L.H.
Tpr J. Thurgood-2nd A.L.H.
R.Q.M.S. E.Walmsley-5th A.L.H.
Following the Great War, the strength of the rifle clubs was as follows:
NSW-16,377
VIC-14,261
QLD-12,322
SA-5,641
WA-7,064
TAS-4,066
"On the 31st December, 1919 there were 1,383 clubs with a membership of 81,006 and in addition 128 miniature rifle clubs having a membership of 5,827. Applications to form rifle clubs are made to the commandant of a military district, and must be signed by not less than thirty male persons between the ages of sixteen and sixty, who are required to be natural-born or naturalised British subjects, and are not undergoing training under the universal clauses of the Defence Act. Persons, however, who are temporarily exempted from universal training may be permitted to join rifle clubs during the period of their temporary exemption. Members of rifle clubs must fire an annual course of musketry, but do not undergo any systematic drill."
(Source:Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Australia No13-1920)
Geof M
|
|
|
|
diggerdave
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1248 Posts |
Posted - 25/05/2008 : 3:38:26 PM
|
Andrew, the following is transcribed from an article in "the Newcastle Morning Herald and Miners' Advocate" of Friday 12 November 1915:-
"Sporting" - "Rifle Shooting"
Mr W.A. Howard. having been gazetted Lieutenant in the Senior Cadets, has, in order to comply with regulations, resigned captaincy of the YMCA Rifle Club, and Mr K.L. Mackenzie has been elected in his place ......." |
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2008 : 8:19:10 PM
|
Thanks for all the contributions - I saw today in the Victorian Commonwealth Gazette (No.15 21 March 1902)a notice giving the dismissal of a (civilian) member of the Warrnambool Rifle Club for being convicted by the civil power - signed by the Victorian Officer Commanding - indicating pretty clearly that members of rifle clubs were seen as being under military regulations appertaining at least to rifle club membership...these regulations at least in Victoria were re-defined in the Gazette 49 of 17 October 1902.
I was also interested to learn today that the Victorian Rangers, the Volunteer Rifle units which followed the formation of the Victorian Mounted Rifles, in 1886, were formed around rifle clubs.
Andrew |
|
|
|
Jeff Pickerd
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2008 : 10:59:12 PM
|
Andrew,
Not sure if this sheds any further light on your investigations into the Rifle Clubs, but this topic drew my attention back to two shooting medals won by my Grandfather.
Of these, one is the "Affiliated Rifle Clubs Medal V.R.A.", inscribed, "Won By Pvte G. Fuzzard, A.L.H. Tatura, Score 165, 1912.
The other is a silver crest, with a small white enamel target, with a Bulls eye and crossed rifles. A circular disc in the centre with my Grandfathers stylized initials, "G F". There are no club markings, only an inscription on the reverse, "Won By Sgt G. Fuzzard L.H. Tatura. 1914".
As far as I know, he was not a rifle club member, but was in the Light Horse Militia, Tatura Troop, from 1909 to 1914.
These medals would undoubtedly indicate that there was a strong association between the Militia units and the Rifle Clubs, with open combined competitions being held.
Hopefully in our search of the newspapers, information detailing these competitions may yet be turned up.
Jeff |
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 27/05/2008 : 8:44:53 PM
|
Thanks Jeff,
Yes, the mounted units were active participants in the VRA annual matches, usually held around November of each year. While I can't comment about 1912 specifically yet, I am sure that the tradition of Mounted Units firing together with Rifle Clubs and Militia units continued past the late 1880s and 90s into the new Federation, especially after the Boer War demonstrated how the citizen Boer soldiers had held off the Imperial regiments...and so how central good rifle shooting was to soldiering in those days (couldn't bring down airstrikes and too much indirect fire in those days!)
In the VRA Annual Reports in the early 1890s, it was normal to see field artillery, VMR, Victorian Rangers, Rifle Clubs and others vying for the various prizes. In the 1897 Bisley meet in England, the Victorians and Queenslanders were there, but the NSW MR also competed for the Lloyd-Lyndsay contest which was the classical mounted sections shoot - and mirrored in identical matches in the VRA, SARA and NSWRA matches each year.
I am about to have a look at the annual prizewinners ("prizemen") for the VRA comps. in the mid 1890s to see who among them served in the Boer War and possible beyond. This will make a real connection between these mounted riflemen and members of rifle clubs if the evidence is there.
Cheers,
Andrew |
|
|
|
Frev
Advanced Forum Member
Australia
403 Posts |
Posted - 27/05/2008 : 10:32:53 PM
|
Andrew
Not sure if this is the kind of thing you're looking for, but:
The Inglewood Company of Victorian Rangers was originally formed mainly from members of the Inglewood Rifle Club. Of the 40 men who are listed on the Inglewood Boer War Memorial - 38 of them were Victorian Rangers. (One of these being Edwin Tivey)
Cheers, Frev
|
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2008 : 9:39:05 PM
|
Frev,
You have the right insight there - and thanks for that detail...the Victorian Rangers were in fact formed on the framework of Rifle Clubs and Volunteers so that makes complete sense to me. The Victorian Government Gazette 26/1888 describes the formation of Victorian Rangers; in VGG 6/1891 19 January 1891 the Victorian Rangers formed into three battalions 1st Bn with HQ at Ararat; 2nd Battalion with HQ at St. Arnaud, and 3rd Battalion with HQ at Cheltenham; VGG 85/1892 set out fixed establishment for VR; but 1893 saw a reduction in establishment. However, the VR were still very much in evidence when the Boer War broke out. However, that was essentially a Mounted War as we know for the Australian Forces and in one sense the Rifle Club movement continued to grow at home while, as you point out in the Inglewood case, VR fellows who wanted to go joined the VMR. I would not be surprised if this was a similar event in other states.
Andrew |
|
|
|
kilsbya
Forum Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2008 : 10:52:56 PM
|
A couple of facts about Mounted Competitions in the annual VRA matches for 1893 and 1895
In 1893 The Broadford Det. of B Coy VMR won the Mounted Rifles Match (Lieut-Col Price's Trophy) for the third and final win - this suggests that it was a three year annual match - as Broadford Det B Co VMR also won it in 1891.
There was also Lloyd-Lindsay matches in 1893 and 1895 which were won by Victorian Horse Artillery or VMR companies from Euroa, Broadford or Rosedale.
I am sure that this was also the case in other State Rifle Association annual matches, and indicates closely the connection between mounted units and rifle clubs of the Movement, at least in Victoria pre-Boer War.
Lloyd-Lindsay matches have been discussed before on other threads - see search if anyone is interested to know the details of this popular mounted rifle section /team of four match.
Cheers,
Andrew |
|
|
|
Kim
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
2171 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 06:53:27 AM
|
Another place you could try is the 8th/13th Victorian Mounted Rifles Museum at Col Tom Price Lines, Bandiana. The guys are there on a Tuesday.
Doug Hunter and the team have a weatlth of knowledge and documents.
Cheers
Kim |
|
|
|
redmist
Forum Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 08:43:54 AM
|
Have you fond any info on the Delungra Rifle Range as a number of our family where Light Horse and rifle club members.
I Have a couple of large trophies including the Dangar Cup awarded to my Great Grandfather for inverell troop 6th light horse. I was told he had to win the highest amount of shoots for 12 months to win it. |
|
|
|
redmist
Forum Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 8:42:53 PM
|
My Great Grandfather Trooper 523 John Lenord Born 1880 at Little Plain was devoted member of the Little Plain Rifle Club from its inception, being Captain, Secretary and Treasurer on numerous occasions. In 1890 a band of mounted rifles was formed at Little Plain. In 1900 was turned into the Australian Light Horse 6th Regiment with a troop at Little Plain being part of Inverell Half Squadron trained by a staff Sergent. They attended the A.L Horse encampment at Liverpool each year, composed of 2000 men and horses. In 1906 or 1908 not to sure trophies were donated by A.A.Dangar of Armidale for the best 12 months scores. These were won by Inverell shooters Capt.Gordon (Officers Cup) Serg. Cunningham (Serg. Cup)and Trooper J.Lenord (Silver Cup) . Now in possession of myself.
Little Plains Troop were as follows
Lieut.S.Lawry...Serg R.Makin...Corp.A Fihhey... Troopers..H.Finney..B.Woods...W.Makin...R.Beneke...W.Scott...J.Leader...D.Leader...J.Lenord...W.Tomlinson and two other Tomlinsons. This info came from a letter in some family documents I came across recently hope it is of some use. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Rifle Clubs, Enlistments, LH
