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diggerdave
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1248 Posts |
 Posted - 28/01/2003 : 10:32:55 PM
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I have found mention on another website claiming Tamworth to be "the centre of breeding of the Waler, the horse of New South Wales."
It was also stated that, and I quote: "Australia sent one hundred and sixty thousand horses to the First World War (more at the Boer War and earlier Indian conflicts), yet only one horse came home.
The one horse that did return, Sandy was the mount of Major General Sir William Bridges who founded Duntroon before heading off to WW1. Sandy returned to Melbourne in 1916 to see out his days."
In my extensive research over the years, I have found that the figure quoted above (160,000) is somewhat misleading.
Secondly, 'Sandy' was not a waler but a thoroughbred.
But what really miffs me is the claim that Tamworth was 'the Waler breeding centre.'
Can anyone come up with documented proof to support Tamworth's claim to have been 'the centre of breeding of the Waler.'
There is a committee in Tamworth raising funds for the commissioning of a sculptress to build the bronze statue of a waler, which will cost $110,000.
I am led to believe that the waler statue committee already has a donation of $15000.00 from the Federal Government to assist with the cost, but are a bit short of the $110,000 mark. |
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2003 : 07:21:24 AM
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Dave
THe figure is fine,,,,,,, but not correct. The number is actually higher. the 160000 fugure refers to remounts exported and does not include the horses taken with initial drafts. My figures which I put together when assembling the ASH Federation Gallery at Scone are amongst some papers I have loaned to Steve Becker so I can give the correct one at the moment.
There is no justification for the claim that they breed the Walers..... they actually are more likely to be the centre of Quarter Horse Breeding!!!
The group planning to build the Waler Memorial includes a gentleman well known to many and you and I in particular!!! |
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2003 : 07:25:12 AM
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PS
FOr details of Sandy have a look at the last (not the current) edition of the AWM magazine "Wartime".
Chris Coultard Clark has written a very well documented and referenced article on him that should be learnt by all interested in the Waler as it clears the air nicely.
Note:: because a Waler is a type and not a breed, a thoroughbred can be a waler,,,, it is the conformation that makes him a Waler not his blood lines. |
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ppwalers
Forum Member
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2003 : 8:06:29 PM
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Walers are not thoroughbreds although the OLD COLONIAL type thoroughbred was a part of its make up. Walers are recognized by a number of things including conformation. They also have to contain a mixture of Barb, arab, the old english coach breeds such as Cleveland bay, Yorkshire coach & norfolk trotters, Percherons suffolks clydesdales shires and welsh timor and Basuto ponies. After the arrival of the first fleet horse breeding comenced and the development of the waler as a type continued up until 1861. After many generations these horses bred true to type. From 1861 to 1931 a total of 486312 were exported to India, Africa, S.E Asia, E Asia (figures from M Kennedy's Uni. of Melbourne 1986 thesis-the role & significance of bullocks & horses in the development of eastern Aust. appendix j) WW1 saw 121,324 horses sent overseas as remounts for the Australians. In the 1940s after the horse trade finished, breeders either shot or released their stock on their stations. It is from these remount stations that todays waler comes from, and is where the Aust. Stockhorse Society got there foundation stock. Australians being Australians couldn't be bothered registering the waler as a breed until 1988 when the Waler Horse Society of Australia Inc. was formed to protect and promote this historic breed. Great lengths are taken to research and prove (including DNA tests when necessary) that the horses are true walers and not just brumbies. The stations that the society gets the foundation walers from must pass requirements with documentation to ensure the horses are bonafide walers. As to Tamworth,s claim, I cannot say if this is true or not. As to Sandy the horse who came back, whatever his breeding, his return was symbolic of the thousands that did not come home. Any body interested is welcome to visit the Waler society webb site at www.walerhorse.com I would be interested in the site Diggerdave mentioned
regards Mark from Patersons Pride Walers, one of the many breeders of this historic horse
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2003 : 9:07:39 PM
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Regardless of what the Waler Society say, the term waler referred to any horse suitable for a military remount that originated from NSW.
The requirement that it came from NSW was gradually dropped and it became any horse that fitted the style of horse required by the military. A Thoroughbred can meet the description of a Waler. To quote Dr A.T. Yarwood in his book "Walers, Australian Horses abroad" ....... "from late in 1846 a horse from New SOuth Wales came to be known almost universally in India as a 'Waler'." (p2)
In 1994 the British Household Cavalry were describing horses they purchased as Walers because of their type and conformation,,,, not their breeding. |
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diggerdave
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1248 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2003 : 10:18:52 PM
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Mark: go to Google (or any other search engine) and type in: waler memorial tamworth
Mention will be made of a Scot's College old boy who has an interest in Australia's Horses of War (or similar wording).
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ppwalers
Forum Member
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 30/01/2003 : 4:52:59 PM
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Hi Diggerdave thanks for the site, I checked it out & can't understand how they can make the claims they make, even taking into account the old boarder lines Tamworth is hardly the geograpic centre of NSW. The Tamworth area & vast tracts of land in that area was a large horse breeding area but these areas are largly forgotten about now, becomming national parks in some places.
Rob, the military requirements were large and varied in the type of horses needed. The horses that had previously been bred for about 70 years before the army looked at them for remount prospects, were in large numbers and fitted the armys criteria, there lies the misconception. In 1956 a group of people took the pick of the horses known then as Walers, infusing thoroughbred blood in a short time. In 1971 a period of 15 years, the Australian Stockhorse was registered as a breed, yet its forebearers the Waler, after 178 years is considered by some to be a type and not a breed because of a misconception of army requirements. Alot of books written in the early years are misleading and only adds to the problem.
Regards Mark
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 30/01/2003 : 7:52:41 PM
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As I said previously, I know that part of the story well,,,,, part of the confusion comes in when people lump light drafts in with Walers. The military horse sales as detailed by Yarwood (and he does go into some detail) do not include light drafts in the Waler description. The are referred to as LD not remounts or Walers. I have no bone to pick with the Waler Association on this but I find it hard to understand how they are able to create a breed from a type by selectively approving the blood lines. Then we have the problem of the breeders who publicly say that their first cross clydesdale/thoroughbred is a waler when it is even on the large side for a Light Draft (have a look at the article in the Queensland Country Life Supplement in August last year,,,, the guy is riding a heavy draft horse with the headlines shouting "Waler")
The enquiry into the breeding of Military horses conducted by the Queensland Government in 1903 gives some very solid guidelines and its preference for breeding WALERS was the use of Suffolk Punch Stallions over Thoroughbred mares with large ribcages and then recrossing the female progeny with quality T/bred stallions.
My understanding of the DNA testing is that it doesnt prove any consistant links between current horses and horses used in WWI because there is no evidence from the horses used (refer NSWNPWS DNA investigation into Brumbies in the Guy Fawkes National Park for comparison with current stockhorses.).
There are cases where evidence of horses used in WWI is available. If you check the bloodlines of Guy Haydon's Midnight (12th Light Horse Regiment,shot at Beersheba) you will find that Peter Haydon is still breeding stockhorses from the same lines of mares that she is from, yet his horses are not part of the Waler Society and yet they are the fine strong type of horse that has been called a Waler since 1846.
The ASHS lines have been further "polluted" in many cases by the addition of AMerican Quarter Horse Blood, yet there are a number of Bloodlines in the Stock Horse which breed very true to type, like that lline listed above.
Its a pity, station bred horses of the Kidman type would be much better than some of the poor quality horses foisted on the Australian Public by some modern breeders. Find me a nice Suffolk Punch and some good T Bred mares and maybe we can start again!!
Rob |
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ppwalers
Forum Member
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 30/01/2003 : 9:53:45 PM
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Hi Rob, yes it is a shame about the stockhorse society opening their books to any type of horse that could pass a requirement. Fortunately now it has been regarded as a mistake and the books are closed but the damage has already been done. The article you refer to was on Shane Oldfield from Clayton station, whose father owned a number of stations that were handed down to the next generation. These stations were remount stations. Shane's father was one of the original breeders of the stockhorse, but fell out with the society when they opened the books to other breeds, destroying the original ideals of the society. The DNA test I mentioned is based on the breeding records that were kept on many of the stations that bred horses. Some stations kept meticulous records, some going back over 100 years. The Guy Fawkes horses were placed there in 1941 by the Australian army on the directive of the government, to be called upon in the event of a Japanese invasion to protect Australia in areas inacessible by vehicles especially in the wet season. These horses were DNA tested and matched against 20 horses randomly selected thru Australia that are owned by members of the waler society. They were found to be of waler 'type' but there was evidence found (in 2 guy fawkes horses out of 20 tested) showing the infusion of breeds other than those that the waler was founded from. It is probable that this outside blood was added to the walers by horses released into the park at a later date. There were many other herds like the guy fawkes horses located around the country for the same reasons. As there was no invasion some of these horses remain in places. Horses are not considered by the society as walers after 1945 to ensure the current waler is from old bloodlines. Horses are only classified as walers after passing stringent requirements to ensure the integrity of the breed, which makes breeding these horses tricky, but fortunately there are enough horses taken from stations around Australia to ensure the survival of the breed.
Regards Mark
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 31/01/2003 : 11:20:18 AM
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Mark
THat is another subject that needs clarification.
What is the source of the information on these "Remount Stations"
The Remount units run by the army were not breeding depots as such but holding areas for horses purchased by the remount officers from anyone who had suitable horses. There does not appear to be any documentation on breeders who bred horses specifically for the Defence FOrce or who were contracted in such a way as to enable them to say that they were a continual supplier. Military horses were bought because of the costs and inherant risks (which you well understand being a breeder yourself!!) of breeding and maintaining young horses. I would love to see some documentation that suggests that horses were bought on a continual contract rather than a spec purchase. |
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diggerdave
Veteran Forum Member
Australia
1248 Posts |
Posted - 31/01/2003 : 10:56:00 PM
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| I have read many advertisements and notices in the Hunter Valley regional newspapers of 1915-1918 stating that 'buyers' will be in attendance at the upcoming horse sales to purchase remounts and artillery and other types for the AIF. |
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2003 : 08:33:56 AM
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| The most interesting advertisement for horses is the one in the Queensland Government gazette in 1910 for purchase of Military Horses,,,, for the German Army. |
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ppwalers
Forum Member
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2003 : 8:58:43 PM
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Hi all
I finally got in contact with one of the girls in QLD. She's sending me some info. by mail. She told me over the phone that the army stock agents bought horses from sale yards around Aust. like the Kidman sales in S.A. that was held once a year. An average 3000 horses passed thru. Stations drove horses to this sale. Army stock agents also went property to property on a round them up and pick out the best basis. The army did have contracts with some stations, these were large scale breeding stations that could guarantee a certain type in the required numbers. These were usually the heavy artillery horses. A bloke called Reg Wilson from the NT. has written a book about this, the name of which will follow shortly. The contracts can be found at the War Memorial in the archives, although they are not listed under any specific heading. The info. has been obtained by the society by interviewing stock agents, some of these interviews where with WW1 agents. These interviews took place some years back when the society was researching the Waler's history. The Japenese also brought horses just before WW2.
More info. to follow when I get it.
Regards Mark.
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 07:22:34 AM
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Thanks Mark
The point is that the image being presented by many people is that the "Remount Stations" were an official organisation. The details of the sales are fine, but the overall impression being presented by Waler enthusiasts is that these stations were set up principally to breed horses for the army; this was not the case.
Horse breeding was an additional source of income to shepp and cattle breeders. It was not consistent enough or lucrative enogh to be a sole source of income. Even Kidman used it as a very lucrative hobby.
I would be most interested to discuss it in detail with the person you have up here in Queensland. I had an enquiry last year about a remount station at Lake Manchester and research through military records and ex Light Horse men failed to find any record of it,,, so I assume it was a property which sold horses to the army rather than an army property. |
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 3:33:05 PM
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| Just for the records..... found a reference today of 300 mares being shipped from the middle east to England in 1919. Except they slipped in two that were not mares,,,,,,, Chauvel's gelding Baldy and Ryrie's Plain Bill, which is referred to as a gelding but my records show it as a Thoroughbred Stallion. |
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ppwalers
Forum Member
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2003 : 8:57:52 PM
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Hi Rob
Still waiting for the mail (snail mail); the army didn't own stations as such that I know of. Obviously it would have been alot cheaper and easier for the army to aquire horses by purchasing them from station owners and private sales, than to go to the expense of breeding and raising them themselves. As for Bill, I thought he was a gelding as stallions were unpopular on the lines, though captured arab 'ponies',were used regardless of sex, towards the end of the war when remounts were thin. To clarify a point, the Waler Horse Society has never claimed that a clydes/crossTB is a waler, as we have breeding guidelines set out in our constitution as follows, any horse bred out from a purebred waler is classed as partbred waler. Any progeny from a partbred waler will always remain partbred, and is branded with the cross of lorraine. Even when bred back to purebred walers over countless generations, they are still partbreds. We also cannot 'create' a waler by mixing various breeds over generations, then calling it a waler as this will go against the constitiuion and destroy everything the waler society has strived to protect. A purebred waler is a horse taken from wild stock, from remount or domestic stations, that has not introduced horses to them since the 1940's. These horses history is carefully researched, then handed to the classifires, a committee is then formed and if everyone is satisfied, then the horses can be accepted as walers. These horses are classed as foundation walers. The progeny of these foundation walers can be placed in the stud book. Foundation walers, with details of their place of origin, are kept in a seperate stud book.
The article you metioned in the QLD Country Life mag wasn't actually titled 'Hero Horses Make a Comeback', by any chance? If so, Shane's horse was not an LD, but a 'medium' true waler, of the type used by the troopers. This horse is Shanes personal stockhorse which he used on the great Australian cattle drive that took place in 2002. This horse was used to pull the wagon and also as a stockhorse for the duration of the drive. He is not as tall as the photo suggests, he is however very solid. Two weeks after the drive we heard that this wonderful fellow had been bitten by a snake and sadly died.
Regards Mark
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ppwalers
Forum Member
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 14/02/2003 : 11:35:11 AM
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Hi Rob
(Snail mails in)As I mention to you the way that the horses were obtained forthe army boyh here & overseas wos through agents & shippers.There were agents all over Australia that appear to have a 'contract'with the British army in Inda to obtain horses suitable for the needs of the army & they were varied.
These agents don't appear to have actual contracts with the station & farm owners,although they did have properties & station owners that they had contact with who they knew were breeding horses that would meet the requirements for remounts.
Often it would seem,certainly in the case of Jim Robb,they would place a stallion of the kind needed in various of the stations to breed with the station horses to get the type they needed.Although there were many different typesrequired.Officers,troopers,gunners that carried the guns,ambulance,& the big artillery horses,as well as polo ponies,& carriage horese for the families overseas.These were all called Walers when they left Australian shores.
All of this information is very well spelt out in a book "Jim Robbs"by Maise Chettle by Seaview Press,PO Box 234.Henley Beach SA 5022. Maisie is Jim Robbs daughter.This book gives a very acqurate report on the horses & the trip overseas its very interesting & you would enjoy reading it.
Regards Mark
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Rob THomas
Senior Forum Member
Australia
891 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2003 : 4:45:19 PM
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That is correct
The buyers were either members of Remount units or private individuals or Companies contracted by the Army to buy horses on the open market or by private negotiation. Not by contract with breeders which is the common method of portrayal. When someone tells you that their family"bred" horses for the Army, they did not have a contract with the Army, they sold horses that they had bred and raised to the required age and condition to the Army. |
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Cuddy
Forum Member
Australia
40 Posts |
Posted - 19/09/2003 : 1:46:38 PM
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| Just for interest..in a book I have written by a US army remount buyer who came here WW2 to buy horses(He actually was after mules but states the Gov had an embargo on the breeding of mules at the time?)He went to Lance Skulthorpes property at Charleville..and speaks very favourably about the horses,calling them walers and describing them as similar to their quarter horses. |
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kleener
Forum Member
Australia
2 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2003 : 6:07:24 PM
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Hi I am new to this forum, and came across this discussion while surfing.
While cleaning out my late mothers effects in the 1970's I came across some of my great grandfather's papers (Alex Armour). Towards the end of the 19th and in the early 20th century he was travelling widely in the colonies, buying horses mainly for Military use.
The records were mainly prices bought, sold with brand as description so I can't comment on type, but the records showed he travelled from sth South west slopes of NSW, through South Australia and as far as WA at least once. Unfortunately I didn't keep any of the documents. I was young.
Yours in relative ignorance |
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Tamworth, the Waler breeding centre of Australia?
