Australian Light Horse Association
26 March 2017, 01:28:47 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
ALHA Website:  http://www.lighthorse.org.au

 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10
 1 
 on: 19 March 2017, 10:40:56 am 
Started by stevebecker - Last post by stevebecker
Zeitoun

I have been trying to track down more on this place but Aussie records are short on of this British Training Area.

But the AOWH by Gullett has some details page 533.

But he stated 1918 we started to send cadets there in Dec 1917.

Zeitoun was a large British training Area, courses were going on there for NCO's and officers, these included the skill at arms courses like, Musketry, and MG (Lewis, Hotchkiss and Vickers) courses. They also ran fighting courses like bayonet, trench warfare and bombing courses. Then they also ran the prom courses for NCO and officers like the cavalry and Officer general courses as well as a Topography course for officers. An interesting course for NCO's and officers was the Range Finding/Taking course.

I am sure I missed some of those courses, as finding a list of the units there, and what they did has been a problem, But both officers and NCO (with some soldiers) spent some time at this place leaning the skills of a soldier and officer in the Army.

As to war went on, the appointment of officers was made more formal, this included the introduction of a form (no name or number) or Application in 1916, from the CO, to the Bde commander, then Div commander, see personal file page 24 for this officer;

GREGORY   Stanley Edmund   305   Cpl   01 LHR   B Sqn WIA 24-7-15 R/arm shrapnel in Monash Valley evac to hosp 8-15 (G) RTA wounded reemb A/Sgt 16R to 1 LHTR 6-16 tos Cpl - T/Sgt (from Weston) B Sqn 7-16 revert to Cpl 8-16 prom 2/Lt C Sqn ? Troop (from Capt Harris WIA) 16-9-16 T/att school of Instruction (unknown course) Zeitoun 1-17 to hosp (rectum) 5-17 rtn 7-17 T/att school of Instruction (unknown course) Zeitoun 9-17 to 2ic C Sqn 10-17 to RHQ 12-17 rtn B Sqn 1-18 shown t/att liaison officer 181 Bde 3-18 rtn possibly B Sqn B Troop? 4-18 shown T/OC B Sqn 7-18 MC - for his actions at Abu Tellul 14-7-18 T/att school of Instruction (unknown course) Zeitoun 8-18 shown t/att Adjt RHQ 11-18 (C Troop ASqn/11 LH CMF)

This also came in another form see page 54 this mans file;

EGAN   John Bede   49   Pte   01 LHR   A Sqn D Troop? tos 8-15 (NP) to L/Cpl 10-15 to T/Cpl (from Gardiner) 10-15 to Cpl (from Wright) 11-15 (G) to Sgt A Sqn A Troop 1-16 att WFF to SSM A Sqn (from Mckeown) 7-16 recom MID - for his actions at Romani 4-8-16 prom 2/Lt B Sqn? A Troop? (from McQuiggin KIA) 7-9-16 T/att school of Instruction (unknown course) Zeitoun 2-17 rtn 3-17 WIA 20-4-17 R/thigh bomb reported Lt Egan and two men wounded when bombed in air attack near Wadi Sheikh Nuran RTA wounded disch 16-10-18 amputated R/leg brothers Francis 6 LHR and Herbert FAB

These forms (both types) were only used for a short period during 1916, then they disappear some time in 1917

(sorry have to go more to follow)

 2 
 on: 13 March 2017, 09:58:21 am 
Started by stevebecker - Last post by stevebecker
Mates,

I have been looking at why soldiers were gaining commissions in the LH during the war. While most of this area is covered else where, little is known of why men were being prom?

The first officers to gain commission happened in 1915 during the fighting at Gallipoli.

Who were they prom?

From what I can see there was no reason why, sure many of these men had some education (uni and such), but many didn't, and were prom from there CMF expirences, or some employment that commanded groups of men, like overseers. While this was not always the reason?

Clearly the idea, that we prom from the ranks in untrue, while a very small number of Pte soldiers were commissioned, most were to the Infantry not the LH, these were drawn from the NCO ranks or more closely from the SNCO ranks.

Yes a small number of Pte soldiers gained commissions in Infantry Bn's while at Anzac, and the odd man to the Engineers few became LH officers?

close to 90% or more were commissioned from the NCO ranks.

How were they prom?

It appears that while some officers names were submitted to higher HQ (Bde and some times Div) these were only to inform them that the commanding officer was doing and he had the power to prom officers?

No formal training was for officers, other then what they learned during there limited service in the AIF or any pre war expirences either in the CMF or in civilian life?

What problems this caused was not seen in many officers, while there were failures, most went on the greater things.

After Gallipoli, CO's continued to prom officers in the field, again not formal education (military) is shown in their records and during 1916 and 1917 new officers were continuing without any training as such.

This changed during 1916, when officers were being sent to the (Imperial) school of Instruction at Zeitoun, this was due to intro of the new Cavalry course, which later changed to what they called, Officers General course. A small number of new officers were sent on these, while not all were, and some older prom officers (between 1915-17) also were sent, but again not all.

So the training levels on many officers must have been limited or more correctly what they leaned on the job and they did very well to a degree.

British officers during 1917 were being sent to the new OCS at Zeitoun and in December 1917, we sent our first group of men to this OCS school, where they took three months to lean to be officers. This was in difference to the Cavalry and officer general courses that lasted for about one month?

This continued into 1918, but to confuse the issue some new officers were being sent to what was called, the Jnr Officers course at Kelab. while this school gave the officer some training it was only about one month?

an Interesting coment in the 4th LH Bde war diary dated May 1918 shows what could have happened , but didn't always?

dated 26-5-18 (an early order had asked for 13 candidates for OCS)

GOC 4 LH Bde to interview candidates for admissions to officer cadet unit;

T/Cpl Brodie 4 LHR  
Sgt Cruckshank 4 LHR
Sgt  Rede 4 LHR
Sgt Whitfield 4 LHR
SSM Griffiths 11 LHR
Sgt Billington 11 LHR
SSM Adams 11 LHR
Sgt Allan 11 LHR
Sgt Smith 12 LHR
RSM Finlayson 12 LHR
Arm/Cpl Eyre 12 LHR
Sgt Haydon 12 LHR
Sgt Keay 4 MGS
L/Cpl Taylor 4 MGS
Wo1 Story 4 LHFA

Follow this interview the following names were withdrawn;

T/Cpl Brodie
Sgt Allan
Sgt Smith
Sgt Keay

But the records show that later did go on another course

SMITH   Nathaniel Henry   380   Pte   12 LHR   B Sqn 4 Troop? att DSqn/7 LHR 8-15 (G) rtn 2-16 to L/Cpl 5-16 to Cpl (from Court) 6-16 to T/Sgt (from Robb) 6-17 revert 8-17 to L/Sgt 8-17 att scout (for admin) 11 LHR 9-17 to Bde scout Sgt 4 LH Bde HQ 10-17 MM - for his actions as a scout at Wadi el Sufi 2-10-17 (B) rtn Sgt B Sqn? 4 Troop? (from Robb) 31-10-17 to cadet OCS Zeitoun 8-18 prom 2/Lt 1-19 rtn C Sqn ? Troop 2-19 (D Troop ASqn/11 LH CMF 4 years later WWII )


But this list does show the main source of officers were SNCO's;

1x L/Cpl
2x Cpls
8 x Sgts
2 x SSM (Wo2)
2 x RSM (Wo1)

So what qualifications did Nat Smith have to be an officer?

He is recorded as a Labourer (in civil life), so not civil reason (education) for prom, while he did have 4 years pre war service in the CMF LH, his main reason was his very interesting Military career to date, a brave and intelligent man no dought helped by his pre war training?

Just to show the lowest rank in that list

TAYLOR   Vernon Aubrey   624   Pte   12 LHR   C Sqn att DSqn/6 LHR 8-15 evac to hosp (influ & enteric) 11-15 (G) RTA enteric relist 16R/6 LHR to 2 LHTR 6-16 tos CSqn/12 LHR 7-16 to MG Sect 11-16 to 4 LH MGS 2-17 to L/Cpl (from hassall) 5-17 (B) to cadet OCS Zeitoun 7-18 prom 2/Lt 15-12-18 rtn 4 LH MGS 3-19

Taylor is shown as an overseer in civil life, while he had no CMF training, he has not shown any other reason to be an officer, like higher rank or an award, so why prom him over say Nat Smith?

Compare to the other 4 LH MGS candidate;

KEAY   William James   1914   A/Cpl   11 LHR   11R Tos 10-16 to 4 LH MGS 2-17 to L/Cpl 5-17 to Cpl 9-17 to Sgt 11-17 recom MID - for his actions at Black Hill near Es Salt 1/3-5-18 (Boer War Cpl CSqn/1 NSWMR (330) AKA William James Fraser Keay

We may never know?

More to follow

 3 
 on: 09 March 2017, 08:42:55 am 
Started by Frev - Last post by stevebecker
Frev,

I noticed a document in service file page 19.

STEELE   Thomas Nelson William Beevor   74   Sgt   11 LHR   A Sqn att DSqn/02 LHR 8-15 evac to St Johns hosp Malta (tonsilitis) 11-15 (G) rtn 2-16 prom 2/Lt 49Bn 17-3-16 MC - for his actions as Lewis gun officer at Pozieres 8-16 WIA 2-11-16 fractured L/leg accident in training at Rechlinghem F&B to 10 Trg Bn Perham Downs UK 4-17 att AIF depot (1 com) UK 4-17 prom Capt 11-17 att AIF depot (4 com) Hurdcott UK 11-17 RTA own request disch 2-5-18 (D Troop BSqn/2 LH CMF 2 years) brother William 2 LHR

Which shows a letter which mentions his brother getting married in Egypt.

I checked his brothers file but didn't see any thing?

Any ideas?

His brother

STEELE   William Alan Beevor      Lt   02 LHR   A Sqn B Troop (in Army lists dated 12-14) shown A Sqn D Troop (in unit history) shown A Sqn C Troop war diay 5-15 shown A Sqn 2 Troop (in Army lists dated 7-15) shown A/Adjt RHQ 8-15 (Tiddy evac to UK ill) prom T/Capt Adjt RHQ 10-15 (G) att WFF prom staff Capt 13 Bde HQ 2-16 prom Maj 52Bn 10-16 F&B disch 26-4-17 MU hernia (CMF Capt - Bvt Maj GSO (3) 1MD 11-18 Brig Maj 1 Cav Bde 1-20 to GSO (2) trg 1-25 to Maj 16-11-27 to GSO (1) 2 Cav Div 4-29 to AA&QMG 1 Cav Div 11-29 to Director S&T AHQ 9-31 to DAQMG AHQ 1-35 to LtCol 3-7-38 later WWII Col HQ 1st Motor Div to Brig Gen Staff Corps CBE brother Thomas 11 LHR related Arthur 2 LHR

Cheers

S.B

 4 
 on: 05 March 2017, 09:50:52 am 
Started by Frev - Last post by stevebecker
Frev,

Thank you, nice one.

S.B

 5 
 on: 28 February 2017, 09:35:21 pm 
Started by Frev - Last post by Frev

Steve - I do have Frederick THOMPSON in the database - he married Hilda BURTON in the Jun Qtr of 1917 in Marlborough, Wiltshire, England.

However, I hadn't had a good look through his file until now.  It turns out that the pages that refer to "F R Thompson" being wounded in the right thigh are for a different soldier.  Lots of similarities however, so an easy mistake for the clerks to have made!

They refer to Lieut Frederick Richard Thompson (MC) of the 3rd MG Bn
He received a GSW to the right thigh on the 27/8/1918 and was admitted to the 8th GH, Rouen on the 29/8/1918.  RTA 11/5/1919 on the Zealandia.

His service record: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1833163

Cheers, Frev

 6 
 on: 27 February 2017, 09:13:10 am 
Started by Frev - Last post by stevebecker
Frev,

This maybe one for you to check out?

His file has a document that shows him WIA 29-8-18, but the name is slightly wrong?

No other documents show him wounded?

Other then his last document which confirms his wounding and adds he was RTA on the "Anchises" with wife and child?

Can you confirm we are talking about the same man or are there two with the same names?

THOMPSON   Frederick   60   Pte   10 LHR   MG Sect to L/Cpl 9-15 to Cpl 9-15 (G) to Sgt 8-16 to 3 LH MGS 9-16 att 42 Div Base depot 1-17 to cadet MG OCS UK 2-17 att AIF depots (1 com) UK 2-17 rtn OCS 4-17 prom 2/Lt 8-17 to 23 MG Co 9-17 (formed under Maj Wells 10 officers 173 men shown Lt's Field, Datson & Norman Ex 10 LHR) shown 3 MG Bn 4-18 possibly WIA 29-8-18 R/thigh shot possibly in fighting around Clery sur Somme F&B married in UK (British 2nd East Yorkshire RGA TF 3 years) AKA FR Thompson


The highlighted are the areas I am unsure of?

Cheers

S.B

 7 
 on: 10 February 2017, 08:03:54 am 
Started by ghosken - Last post by stevebecker
Mate,

No worries.

But Harold Miller?

MILLER   Harold   1078   Dvr   2 LH Bde Trn   (6Co AASC) remain Egypt to L/Cpl 1-16 to HQ ASC Anzac MD 3-16 to Cpl 3 LH Bde Sup Sect 9-16 to Sgt 7-17 to CQMS 32Co Anzac MDT 8-17 recom MID - for his work between March to Aug 1918 AKA Harold Millar   

Horse braker   31   from Gundagai NSW   

enlist 22-10-14   RTA 15-11-18   (1914 leave)

He has no service on Anzac, remaining in Egypt to moved supplies, while he did serve later with the Anzac Mounted Div?

Frev's very good, mothers maiden name didn't think of it.

Cheers

S.B

 8 
 on: 09 February 2017, 09:27:16 pm 
Started by ghosken - Last post by ghosken
Steve, Frev has found him! Franklin enlisted under the name of Harold Miller, using his mother's maiden name. Regimental number 1078. Served with 6th Coy, AASC, Anzac Mtd Div, AMD HQs, 12th ASC, 3rd LHB Supply Section, ASC Training Depot, AM Divisional Train.
Thanks for your help. You have given me some good leads on other blokes.

 9 
 on: 09 February 2017, 10:38:15 am 
Started by ghosken - Last post by stevebecker
Mate,

Of cause this ship have many men from the Anzac veterns on board being a 1914 leave ship.

Including these men from Temora;

BAKER   William Henry Mark   61   Pte
CARTWRIGHT   Harry Brennan   570   Pte
DEW   Herbert James   246   Pte
GILES   Ernest Arthur   376   Pte
HARRIS   Ernest   1035   Dvr
HULM   John Edward Francis   406   Pte
MATTHEWS   William Thomas   431   Pte
MEEHAN   Albert Horace   425   Pte
ROSS   Donald   115   Pte

And Adelong

CORBETT   Stanley Edmond   618   Pte
THOMPSON   Henry Joseph   53   Sad/Sgt

Added to that list are the others shown RTA on that date from the 1st ALHR with known Warrant officers;

ASHWORTH   Athol Robert   288   Pte
BERRY   Harold   451   S/Smith
BEVERIDGE   Thomas Fraser   2459   Pte
BILLINGHAM   Percy   632   Pte
BROWNE   Sylvester Henry   56   Sgt/Sad
BUTTER   Andrew Kerr   399   Pte RTA SSM
CALDOW   William Andrew   97   L/Cpl RTA SSM
CARR   Charles Louis Norman   1540   Pte
CHARLTON   William Cardwell   99   Pte
CLANCY   John Francis   401   Dvr
CUNEO   Cyril Charles   1166   Pte
DAVIS   George Edward   3775   Pte
DEEGAN   John Joseph   2874   Pte
DELLER   Joseph John   250   Pte
DODD   Joseph   713   Pte
FARRELL   Edward Nicholas   467   Cpl
FENWICK   Robert Henry   174   Pte
FERRIS   Cecil   941   Pte
FLANAGHAN   Martin Patrick   364   Pte
FRANCIS   Innis Earle   407   Pte
FROST   Earle William Lonby   488   Pte
GEHRIG   Bernard Joseph   259   Pte
GIBBS   James William   610   Pte
HEATHCOTE   Alfred Mark Vivian   2332   Pte
HONEY   Ernest Rosearnna   2644   Pte
HUTCHINSON   John   493   S/Smith
HUTTON   Maxwell William   122   Pte
IBBOTT   Ivan George   642   Pte
JARRETT   Harry Wilkinson   126   Pte
JOHNS   William Francis   411   Pte
JONES   Cecil Edward   127   Pte
JONES   William Clifford   129   Sgt RTA RSM
KIMBALL   Leslie Austin   21   Dvr
KITCHER   Frank Herbert   1891   A/Cpl
KNODLER   Reginald John   135   Pte
LINDSELL   Charles Archibald   32   Pte
LITHGOW   Alexander   414   Dvr

MacFARLANE   Stewart Robertson   519   Pte
McDONALD   George   314   Pte
MERRELL   Albert Edward   419   Pte
MILLS   Edgar Yelverton   352   Pte RTA SSM
MITCHELL   Bentley   334   Pte
MOLLOY   Stanley William   617   Pte
MORTON   Albert Henry   3745   Pte
MYERS   Edward Wilson   318   Pte
NELSON   William Maurice   27   Sig/Cpl
ORFORD   Thomas James   654   Pte
QUARMBY   John Roland   369   Pte
RICH   Lindsay   619   Pte
RICHARDS   William George   279   Pte
RYAN   David Joseph   155   Pte  RTA SSM
SHEAHAN   John Phillip   466   Cpl  RTA SSM
SMITH   Henry Francis   366   Dvr
SMITH   Laurence Henry   2383   Pte
SPENCE   William Andrew   382   Pte
SQUELCH   Frederick Charles   506   Pte
SQUIRES   John   78   Pte
STANLEY   Alvin   434   Pte
STEVENSON   Henry Stirling   436   L/Cpl
SUTCLIFFE   Albert Arthur   74   Far/Sgt  RTA F/QMS
TANCRED   Roy Charles   437   Pte  RTA RQMS
THOMAS   Evan Benjamin   622   Pte
THOMLINSON   Herbert   55   L/Cpl
THOMSON   Albert Edward   439   Pte
TODD   George Leslie   161   Pte
TODHUNTER   Trevor Leslie    441   Pte RTA SSM
TOMLINS   Fred Harold   442   Sig
TRAILL   James Hamilton   457   Sig
TREASURE   Percy Henry   443   Pte
TRETHEWEY   Robert Stanley   440   Pte
TRICKETT   Herbert Victor   1478   Pte
WALL   Herbert   507   Pte

Others shown who served with 1 LHR;

ALLANSON   Alfred Dixon   42   Pte   1 VS
BRETT   George Neville   46   Dvr   1 LHFA
GIBBS   Charles William   64   Dvr   1 LH Bde Trn
HARRIS   Hamlyn Layiscant Vernon   572   Pte   6 LHR
HARVEY   Edward Benjamin Waldron    113   Pte   05 LHR
SINDEN   Wallace Oscar    232   Pte   7 LHR
WEIR   William Hamilton   210   Pte   04 LHR

S.B

 10 
 on: 09 February 2017, 09:01:38 am 
Started by ghosken - Last post by ghosken
Steve, thanks very much for the three posts. There certainly is a good chance that he was on the same ship as Meehan. Might have to go to Archives in Canberra - there were a few court martials I wanted to look up anyway.
I will check out those Temora names and thanks for the Adelong list, I can see a few there that I haven't come across before in my research. I've already found heaps more names than anticipated from Adelong and district so it is becoming bigger than Ben Hur. Been fascinating though, as it always is finding out about the men of the AIF. No women unfortunately! Though there was a wife of a doctor who is said to have contributed to the war effort while in Scotland and England in the war years. Can't find out what she did though.
Thanks again.


Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.12 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!